Beach Residents Discuss Local Government Problem

scotto

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A Spectator article from March 6th, 1952
Many thanks to the Simmons's family
_____________________________________

New Ratepayers' Body Prepares For Referendum Next Wednesday​
Many questions of interest to ratepayers of Burlington Beach, particularly in view of the vote to be taken on March 12 on the question of retaining the commission government or adopting municipal government of elected representatives, were discussed last night at an open meeting of the recently formed Burlington Beach Property Owners' Association.

Answer Residents Queries​
The meeting, held in the new auditorium, was attended by some 400 residents of the Beach. Reginald Wheeler presided, and members of the Beach Commission attended by invitation to answer questions. Also attending for the purpose of giving information was C. F. Nunn, supervisor for Southern Ontario for the Department of Municipal Affairs.
Appealing for an orderly meeting, the chairman explained that the formation of the property owners' association and the calling of this meeting was the result of "ordinary chaps with no political affiliations and no axe to grind wanting to know the facts." If the commission is returned in the vote, he said, the association would become a permanent group officered "by all the people you think should be on it." It would be democratic and would work with the commission.
Percy Price, of Hamilton, a summer resident at the Beach for many years, was the first speaker. He said he felt the forming of the association if it was carried out, was "the biggest contribution ever made on the Beach." He congratulated the Beach Commission on the new addition to the school which, he felt, was a credit and in keeping with any other school in the province.
"On the Beach," he said, "there seems to be a feeling of lack of confidence, a bit of jealousy, perhaps, but there's nothing serious, only a few beefs - a little eruption over the commission."
The suggestion of opening a kindergarten had come up, he said, and in this connection he gave figures from Hamilton showing a cost of $100 per pupil per year, which, with 65 pupils at the Beach, would mean an additional $6,500 per year.
The chairman read a list of 16 questions he wanted answered. The replies in some cases came from commission members, in others from the municipal affairs representative. An open question period was also permitted.
Explain Commission Set-up​
Questions regarding the commission brought forth the information that it is composed of five members appointed by the government and that they can be changed if not satisfactory to the ratepayers. The chairman receives an honorarium of $300 a year while the other four are not paid anything.
Highway and dirt strip - who maintains, and costs? - brought forth a lot of argument and criticism in general. Fred Jento, commission chairman, said the Ontario Department of Highways maintains the 22-foot highway at no cost to the Beach. The commission polices it and gets 40 per cent of fine collected. The dirt strip is the responsibility of the commission and the province refunds 33 per cent of maintenance costs.
If was suggested that when the proposed new link of the Queen Elizabeth Way over the Beach is constructed, the present highway would be handed hack to the municipality, which would then be responsible for maintenance. If it became a town, Mr. Nunn said, it would probably receive 50 per cent refund from the province. The new road would, of course, be strictly a government project.

Asked what status the Beach would take if the vote went in favour of elected government, Mr. Nunn replied that it would in all probability become a town with a mayor, reeve, perhaps a deputy reeve, and six councillors. The mayor would receive any salary council saw fit to allow him and council members could be paid $5 a meeting at least. Complaint was made that names had been left off the voters' list and that the list had not been displayed in such a way that working men could see it after returning from work. Mr. Nunn replied that court of revision had been advertised and that it was the electors' privilege to appear before that court if names had not been included on list. Replying to the complaint that the voters' list had been left in the clerk's office which was locked at night, the official said, "Certainly, it would have been a service to the public had it been placed some place where it could be seen. It should have been in the post office." The act provided, he added, that it must be posted in the clerk's office - not necessarily outside.
Asks Fair Hearing For All
An unidentified lady charged that she had been refused an appointment to attend a commission meeting by H. B. Black, secretary, Mr. Black replied emphatically, "I never refused any person in this world." At this stage the chairman again appealed for "a fair hearing for commission members and others."
Chairman Wheeler suggested elected municipal government would cost Beach ratepayers a tax increase of approximately 12 mills.
The Beach fire department, it was disclosed, has a membership of 27 men, all volunteers. No salaries are paid but the department is given a grant of $600. It was also allowed to purchase a former bowling club building for one dollar, to be used as a club-house. High tribute was paid the volunteers by the gathering, regardless of feeling on form of municipal government.
No changes were anticipated in mail delivery, telephone service, hydro service-one ratepayer was all for having the Beach establish its own hydro service-or gas service. The commission was asked what it had done about high water level of lake and bay and what it intended to do about property loss resulting. Mr. Jento replied that any suggestion on how to control water level would be welcome.

 

scotto

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It seems that there were two sides to the issue and both sent out their information to the residents, they even went as far as to print some issues of the Beach Bulletin.














 

scotto

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The Outcome

Endorse Commission As Beach Government​
Hamilton Beach, March 13 -
The Hamilton Spectator
The sunny spring weather brought out 75 per cent of the taxpayers at the Beach to exercise their franchise as to retaining the present commission government or substituting a munici¬pal government of elected representa¬tives.
The vote cast in favour of the commission was 413; in favour of elected council, 332. There were 25 miscast ballots. This is the third time in the last 13 years that a group has opposed commission government. In 1935 a deputation of ratepayers presented a petition to the government requesting that the area be made a village, but the government did not think the time opportune. Then, in 1939, a vote of ratepayers was taken by mail on the question and the proposal was snowed under. The next vote carne in 1946 when the proposal was again defeated. This last time, in 1952, brought out the heaviest; vote with a majority of only 81 votes for the commission form of govern¬ment. Working in opposition to the Burlington Beach Commission was the Beach Citizens' Committee, later expanded to the Burlington Beach Ratepayers' Association. Recently the Burlington Beach Property Own¬ers' Association was formed to uphold the commission government.



 

scotto

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As i see it

Every home-owner I have ever met believes that we are over-governed; that Civil Service exceeds our needs; that politicians should stick to "setting policies" and allow those with administrative ability to carry out management and feels that Civil Services rendered are not worth the cost.
Now, we Beachities are going to decide whether we want to get rid of the Commission Government and, instead, elect a political group who will improve — what? — may I ask? There is one thing of which I am certain — it will cost more money to support this common type of government and, as time goes on, it will cost more as friends of the friends of the political group get busy at the trough.
Must we be like other municipalities that all carry terrific indebtedness; that are taxed beyond reason; where the interest rates on loans alone would pay for running an efficient government body? Have you noticed the yearly financial statement of the Beach Commission Not bad friends! I doubt if you could produce as good for any municipality in this country.
The Commission has been accused of abruptness and a tough attitude towards money expenditures. Personally, I love management that can say "no" firmly with my money when petty and unnecessary expenditures are sought.
Friends, what do we want aside from the right to be left alone to live in the houses we struggle to own and maintain at a minimum cost? We have many governments. We can turn to Provincial Government in time of need and, if that authority is unreasonable, we can demand Federal action. The Commission is made up of local citizens who are responsible to Provincial authority which would dispense with their services if they were to spend tax money foolishly. A local government has, more than once, lost its head with grandiose ideas and put the little home-owner in debt for generations.
Let us get our position in true focus: We are little people on a little sand-strip. We can never plan on being an industrial centre or metropolis. Our future is not great nor is our needs. If the Provincial Government would man THEIR highway (which runs through our strip) our police force would be ample protection. Our Fire Department is an efficient group of volunteers — unpaid. Think of it! Do you suppose this would last under the mythical local representation paradise?
Times could get tough. Would we not be more secure under the wing of the Provincial authority than on our own? Remember — there are only a few of us who do not depend on another municipality for our living — and industrial income is never guaranteed.
This letter is my own idea. My only motive is to try to protect my property against future unreasonable taxation and a group of local politicians who could be of no benefit to this property or to myself.
(Sgd.) L. M. Kennedy,
1229 Beach Blvd.
 

scotto

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A Couple More

March 5, 1952
Hamilton Spectator

Elected Government Urged For Beach

To the Editor;
Permit me a little space in your valuable paper to reply to Mr. Kime. There are too many people like the writer who think it is foolish to exercise their franchise. Canada is still a democracy, but won't be much longer, if people continue to sit down under dictatorship government. The very fact that the Beach is no longer a summer resort is the reason why the present form of government should be changed. If commission government is so cheap, so desirable and so efficient, then don't let the Beachites have all the "good" government, pass some of it along to some of these other "misguided" municipalities which insist on an elective form of council.
Mr. Kime better take off his rose-coloured glasses and view things in their proper light. Pupils are still walking two miles to school — that is the younger children — while the
high school pupils ride in buses. His reference to a high school being building is somewhat misleading. The boulevard is in the worst mess it has ever been in — and that, after a misguided effort last year, in which a lot of the taxpayers' money literally went down the drain. Let him read that statement in the press last week that the sandstrip was closed on account of its dangerous condition. Actually it wasn't closed, but drivers had to exercise the utmost caution on account of the water on the highway, directly traceable to the botch that was made of the sand-strip.
Last year the Hamilton Spectator commented editorially on the filthy condition of the beaches in the canal zone and suggested something be done about it. Hamilton used to donate $2,000 towards the upkeep of this area and then cut it to $1.000. We didn't hear of any protest from the commission about it.
Every summer our volunteer fire¬men race up and down the Beach saving the lives of Hamiltonians, not Beach residents. Do the firemen get any recompense for this from the Hamilton Council?
If commission government is so beneficial, to this Beach why is it that there is a constant demand that commission government be changed? This is not, as is often stated, coming from the newcomers to the Beach. Some of the most insistent voices are from long-time residents who see the futility of trying to get anywhere with a form of government that awaits the pleasure of the party for its removal, good, bad, or indifferent.
Our commission is also remiss in its duties when it allows its paid servant to act in a high-handed manner when dealing with the taxpayers, who are paying him a salary four times in excess of what a neighbouring village pays a woman who handles the job on a part-time basis, with dispatch, efficiency and courtesy.
The so-called cheap taxes that Beachitcs allegedly enjoy is another commission myth. Take time to compare your taxes with neighbouring villages and see what you get for your tax dollar.
The same old red herring is being hauled across the trail. If you want to be like any other self-respecting community it is going to cost you a fortune in taxes to accomplish it, so the commission says.
Let's quit making political football out of the Beach.
Disgusted.



March 6, 1952
Hamilton SpectatorBeach Commission Is Supported
To the Editor;
Once again, the properly owners of Hamilton Beach are to go to the polls to determine the form of administration which will govern them. Before this third plebiscite is held let us look at the record of the Burlington Beach Commission. In 1912 when the first commission took office the Beach was a summer resort. It was then that a real estate boom occurred. It was through the Beach Commission that Kenmore Park survey was converted into a residential area, Eli Van Allen was the chairman of the first Beach Commission. David Pyle was in charge of a local water works which this commission obtained for the Beach. Many fine homes were built. Chief John Hazell was in charge of an able police system. Later when James Crooks, Norman Clark and Colonel Grafton comprised the three-member commission in 1915 more improvements took place. The Beach Bungalow School was built, and in 1923 the highway was converted from a dirt road into a paved roadway. Taxes were kept down. Beach children no longer had to walk two miles to attend Saltfleet School No. 4. Polling booths were transferred from Van Wagner's to Hamilton Beach. Fire hose houses were built along the Beach, independent of Stoney Creek. Commission employees turned the water on and off in winter and summer for the summer residents, graded side streets and opened a number of streets. All were named by this commission. Chief Thomas Taplin was police chief with two able assistants.
In those days agitation was also rampant. The Beach Improvement Society was formed by W. F. Montague to ask the commission to pay heed to the wishes of the residents.
In 1936 the three-member Commission gave way to the present five-member Burlington Beach Commission. This able commission also followed the record of the old commission in improving the beach. A postal delivery exists; a fire hall was established with modern fire-fighting apparatus. The dirt strip is being improved and the Canal Park is kept in shape. Benches and tables are painted every year. Streets are repaired. In addition, when the Bay waters caused flood conditions on the Beach in 1943 and 1947 the able commission employees under Jimmy Cartwright erected plank walks and used crushed stone as fill along the Bay shore. Also these employees have dumped tons of stone along the shore. The present Commission tries to maintain a reasonable tax rate.
The Beach has a very able police force under Chief Howard Nickling and Sergeant Wain for the protection of the residents.
And yet, the Beach Citizens’ Committee wants to change all this! If the Burlington Beach Commission gives way to an elective body, Beach residents will have to pay salaries to each member, also pay for the upkeep of the provincial highway and for county roads. A change on Hamilton Beach means high taxes. All Beach property owners will have to weigh the issue carefully when they go to vote. For well may it he said before it is late, "Hands off our Beach Commission."
Royston C. Kime,
Hamilton Beach.
 

David O'Reilly

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Scott;
"Fire hose houses were built along the Beach, independent of Stoney Creek."

Were fire hose houses designed to draw one end of the hose up high enough (presumably with a pulley) so that the other end would swing clear of the ground allowing all of the water to drain out? Thereby preventing the water from freezing and causing damage?

Do you have any pictures of these structures? And did the beach volunteer fire department have a building in which to store the fire truck?
 

scotto

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Scott;
“Fire hose houses were built along the Beach, independent of Stoney Creek.”

Were fire hose houses designed to draw one end of the hose up high enough (presumably with a pulley) so that the other end would swing clear of the ground allowing all of the water to drain out? Thereby preventing the water from freezing and causing damage?

Do you have any pictures of these structures? And did the beach volunteer fire department have a building in which to store the fire truck?
I wasn't around when the fire hoses were stored along the Beach, so I have no idea how the hoses were stored. The only picture I have shows a shed beside the ESSO gas station across from the Dynes Tavern and would be located at entrance to the Beach Rescue Unit.




From the pictures I have collected over the years, I have one showing a barn style building with a fire dept. sign on the roof in front of a cupula. There are three 50's style trucks parked out front.


I have another picture showing one of the same trucks which must be brand new and hasn't had the rear section of the truck installed yet, this truck is sitting behind the old Beach Rescue Unit hall, the storage garage if there, isn't shown.
 

scotto

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One more of the same truck with fire crew and the equipment installed, a storage garage can be seen to the left in the photo but I don't know if it belong to the fire dept.


Beach Rescue replaced the last concrete block garage (shown below) in 2008 with new the present structure.
 

David O'Reilly

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scotto
01-13-2016, 11:53 PM
Scott;
"Fire hose houses were built along the Beach, independent of Stoney Creek."

Were fire hose houses designed to draw one end of the hose up high enough (presumably with a pulley) so that the other end would swing clear of the ground allowing all of the water to drain out? Thereby preventing the water from freezing and causing damage?

Do you have any pictures of these structures? And did the beach volunteer fire department have a building in which to store the fire truck?

I wasn't around when the fire hoses were stored along the Beach, so I have no idea how the hoses were stored. The only picture I have shows a shed beside the ESSO gas station across from the Dynes Tavern and would be located at entrance to the Beach Rescue Unit.

http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/...ics/Old Beach Pics/ManzerEgan_zpsx8ojhvdy.jpg (http://s833.photobucket.com/user/sc...ld Beach Pics/ManzerEgan_zpsx8ojhvdy.jpg.html)


From the pictures I have collected over the years, I have one showing a barn style building with a fire dept. sign on the roof in front of a cupula. There are three 50's style trucks parked out front.
http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz256/scotto2010/Burlington Beach Fire Dept/FireDept.jpg (http://s833.photobucket.com/user/scotto2010/media/Burlington Beach Fire Dept/FireDept.jpg.html)

I have another picture showing one of the same trucks which must be brand new and hasn't had the rear section of the truck installed yet, this truck is sitting behind the old Beach Rescue Unit hall, the storage garage if there, isn't shown.
http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz256/scotto2010/Burlington Beach Fire Dept/img051.jpg (http://s833.photobucket.com/user/scotto2010/media/Burlington Beach Fire Dept/img051.jpg.html)
________________________________________
scotto
01-13-2016, 11:58 PM
One more of the same truck with fire crew and the equipment installed, a storage garage can be seen to the left in the photo but I don't know if it belong to the fire dept.
http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz256/scotto2010/Burlington Beach Fire Dept/img047.jpg (http://s833.photobucket.com/user/scotto2010/media/Burlington Beach Fire Dept/img047.jpg.html)

Scott, can I suggest starting a thread on the Beach Fire Department? And when were fire hydrants first installed on the beach?
 

David O'Reilly

Registered User
Dec 15, 2012
481
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#10
scotto
01-13-2016, 11:53 PM
Scott;
"Fire hose houses were built along the Beach, independent of Stoney Creek."

Were fire hose houses designed to draw one end of the hose up high enough (presumably with a pulley) so that the other end would swing clear of the ground allowing all of the water to drain out? Thereby preventing the water from freezing and causing damage?

Do you have any pictures of these structures? And did the beach volunteer fire department have a building in which to store the fire truck?

I wasn't around when the fire hoses were stored along the Beach, so I have no idea how the hoses were stored. The only picture I have shows a shed beside the ESSO gas station across from the Dynes Tavern and would be located at entrance to the Beach Rescue Unit.

http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/...ics/Old Beach Pics/ManzerEgan_zpsx8ojhvdy.jpg (http://s833.photobucket.com/user/sc...ld Beach Pics/ManzerEgan_zpsx8ojhvdy.jpg.html)


From the pictures I have collected over the years, I have one showing a barn style building with a fire dept. sign on the roof in front of a cupula. There are three 50's style trucks parked out front.
http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz256/scotto2010/Burlington Beach Fire Dept/FireDept.jpg (http://s833.photobucket.com/user/scotto2010/media/Burlington Beach Fire Dept/FireDept.jpg.html)

I have another picture showing one of the same trucks which must be brand new and hasn't had the rear section of the truck installed yet, this truck is sitting behind the old Beach Rescue Unit hall, the storage garage if there, isn't shown.
http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz256/scotto2010/Burlington Beach Fire Dept/img051.jpg (http://s833.photobucket.com/user/scotto2010/media/Burlington Beach Fire Dept/img051.jpg.html)
________________________________________
scotto
01-13-2016, 11:58 PM
One more of the same truck with fire crew and the equipment installed, a storage garage can be seen to the left in the photo but I don't know if it belong to the fire dept.
http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz256/scotto2010/Burlington Beach Fire Dept/img047.jpg (http://s833.photobucket.com/user/scotto2010/media/Burlington Beach Fire Dept/img047.jpg.html)

I have been trying to find a page with documentation and a picture for 'fire hose house', also known as 'fire hose tower', but I haven't been very successful. What I have found is pictures that show fire halls in various parts of Canada and the world, that have adjoining towers. But the beach of course didn't have a fire hall, but rather a building to store the fire truck(s) and several fire hose towers. So I have included this page which gives very little information, and no picture. But at least it is some place to start.

There must be pictures somewhere of the beach's fire hose towers.

"Hose tower
structure for hoisting hoses to permit them to drain and dry."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_firefighting_equipment
 

David O'Reilly

Registered User
Dec 15, 2012
481
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18
#11
I have been trying to find a page with documentation and a picture for 'fire hose house', also known as 'fire hose tower', but I haven't been very successful. What I have found is pictures that show fire halls in various parts of Canada and the world, that have adjoining towers. But the beach of course didn't have a fire hall, but rather a building to store the fire truck(s) and several fire hose towers. So I have included this page which gives very little information, and no picture. But at least it is some place to start.

There must be pictures somewhere of the beach's fire hose towers.

"Hose tower
structure for hoisting hoses to permit them to drain and dry."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_firefighting_equipment
________________________________________

This page has a 1915 picture from one of Gary Evan's books of the Burlington fire hall with a tower for the hoses.
http://vitacollections.ca/burlingto...a?&fz=0&grd=195&rows=20&sort=dateSort+asc&v=t

there has to be information in old news paper articles about the beginning of the beach's fire department that gives information on the hose towers that were situated along the strip!!!
 

scotto

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Feb 15, 2004
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#12
Scott, can I suggest starting a thread on the Beach Fire Department? And when were fire hydrants first installed on the beach?
I could only speculate when the first hydrants were installed, likely back in the 1920's when the Beach Commission installed water lines for the Beach homes. I do know that before the new sewers were installed with new water lines, the pressure was sub-par and water had to be delivered during a fire and a large tub was setup on the Blvd. and was kept full with a water truck.

A thread has been started already of the old fire dept. as the origin of the Recue Unit, but it consist mostly of old pictures. http://hamiltonbeachcommunity.com/f...y-Of-The-Hamilton-Beach-Rescue-Unit-Inc/page2
 

David O'Reilly

Registered User
Dec 15, 2012
481
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#13
David O'Reilly
01-14-2016, 08:18 AM
scotto
01-13-2016, 11:53 PM
Scott;
"Fire hose houses were built along the Beach, independent of Stoney Creek."

Were fire hose houses designed to draw one end of the hose up high enough (presumably with a pulley) so that the other end would swing clear of the ground allowing all of the water to drain out? Thereby preventing the water from freezing and causing damage?

Do you have any pictures of these structures? And did the beach volunteer fire department have a building in which to store the fire truck?

I wasn't around when the fire hoses were stored along the Beach, so I have no idea how the hoses were stored. The only picture I have shows a shed beside the ESSO gas station across from the Dynes Tavern and would be located at entrance to the Beach Rescue Unit.

http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/...ics/Old Beach Pics/ManzerEgan_zpsx8ojhvdy.jpg (http://s833.photobucket.com/user/sc...ld Beach Pics/ManzerEgan_zpsx8ojhvdy.jpg.html)


From the pictures I have collected over the years, I have one showing a barn style building with a fire dept. sign on the roof in front of a cupula. There are three 50's style trucks parked out front.
http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz256/scotto2010/Burlington Beach Fire Dept/FireDept.jpg (http://s833.photobucket.com/user/scotto2010/media/Burlington Beach Fire Dept/FireDept.jpg.html)

I have another picture showing one of the same trucks which must be brand new and hasn't had the rear section of the truck installed yet, this truck is sitting behind the old Beach Rescue Unit hall, the storage garage if there, isn't shown.
http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz256/scotto2010/Burlington Beach Fire Dept/img051.jpg (http://s833.photobucket.com/user/scotto2010/media/Burlington Beach Fire Dept/img051.jpg.html)
________________________________________
scotto
01-13-2016, 11:58 PM
One more of the same truck with fire crew and the equipment installed, a storage garage can be seen to the left in the photo but I don't know if it belong to the fire dept.
http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz256/scotto2010/Burlington Beach Fire Dept/img047.jpg (http://s833.photobucket.com/user/scotto2010/media/Burlington Beach Fire Dept/img047.jpg.html)

here is something from an other thread, but it raises more questions than it answers.

"Fire Chief Dan Hazell gave his report. An inventory was presented from the Volunteer Fire Department showing that 3,300 feet of hose is on hand."
http://hamiltonbeachcommunity.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-1977.html

this makes me think that the beach fire truck didn't carry any hose at all. But in stead it was all stored in hose towers spread out along the beach. And so when the department responded to a call, it went to the closest tower, removed the hose and then took it to the nearest fire hydrant.
 

scotto

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Feb 15, 2004
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#14
From Fred;
"Until 1941 the only fire protection on Hamilton Beach was Fire Hoses along The Strip. The equipment consisted of big iron wheels, 200 feet of firehose on a reel, a nozzle and a hydrant wrench, pulled by manpower.
When World War 2 broke out the Government set up an Air Raid Protection Station, and the Firemen were loaned a small pump on a trailer, later changed to an eight-cylinder motor and a larger pump. A crew was picked to patrol the Beach Strip during blackouts, and to man the pump if an emergency arose. A 5 H. P. siren was installed at Dynes Station."
 

David O'Reilly

Registered User
Dec 15, 2012
481
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#15
scotto
01-15-2016, 09:00 PM
"From Fred;
"Until 1941 the only fire protection on Hamilton Beach was Fire Hoses along The Strip. The equipment consisted of big iron wheels, 200 feet of firehose on a reel, a nozzle and a hydrant wrench, pulled by manpower.
When World War 2 broke out the Government set up an Air Raid Protection Station, and the Firemen were loaned a small pump on a trailer, later changed to an eight-cylinder motor and a larger pump. A crew was picked to patrol the Beach Strip during blackouts, and to man the pump if an emergency arose. A 5 H. P. siren was installed at Dynes Station.""

Scott,
This is also about the beach fire siren.

Chief Hazell had done some inquiring regarding w ho would look after the fire siren phone, Noel Hughes, 22 Bellevue Avenue, will take the siren in his home and store for one year at $65 per month or for two years at $75 per month on a written agreement. This offer will be considered. The previous remuneration was $1 per day."

http://hamiltonbeachcommunity.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-2230.html




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